Randomizer candidates...

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YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH »

pooty wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:24 pm ONS-All-Fall-Down-Randomizer-V1

Wait, What another Randomizer? Well, yes. They seem to be popular.
So this map has a bit of unique layout, and a couple of points.
1. Yes, there's flyers, you might get 1, 4 or none. However, there's a low ceiling from the cores, you have to take the flyers in the tunnels to the main bridge/river area. [The area over the mountains isn't complete in the map and would take some time to rework it, and it might "break" the play on the map]

2. Only fixed vehicle is the Dark Levi at the cores.

3. Unlike other randomizers, not all nodes are "paired". So on other Rando Maps, which are mostly symmetrical, nodes are paired they get same points, same vehicles for each pair, think 8/9 on Minus for example. Here, there are 4 nodes with no pair, so the 4 primaries are paired, and the two bridge nodes are paired. The other four (4,5,9,10) are all random, they have same range of point values but will all get different vehicles. You might get a shitty loadout, you might get a great loadout -- they joy/pain of randomizers.

4. No Omnitaur (Classic Mino), No MAS except the Dark Levi, No Mechs, No Bombers -- they don't work in the tunnels.

5. A few other link layouts, random of course.

As always suggestions welcome.
I like the idea of no pairing. "Aw shit they got a PPC and we got a scorpion". Time to take out that PPC then.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by Enyo »

pooty wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 4:24 pm ONS-All-Fall-Down-Randomizer-V1
3. Unlike other randomizers, not all nodes are "paired". So on other Rando Maps, which are mostly symmetrical, nodes are paired they get same points, same vehicles for each pair, think 8/9 on Minus for example. Here, there are 4 nodes with no pair, so the 4 primaries are paired, and the two bridge nodes are paired. The other four (4,5,9,10) are all random, they have same range of point values but will all get different vehicles. You might get a shitty loadout, you might get a great loadout -- they joy/pain of randomizers.
As always suggestions welcome.
Just flow of thought, and a couple suggestions...

We have a balancer in an attempt to make teams as evenly matched as possible (highly debatable as to how well that's working), but then we make a map that is naturally going to end up lop-sided in terms of vehicle loadouts, likely further exacerbating already lop-sided teams when the balancer inevitably gets it wrong? Just trying to understanding the intent here.

I think about how the old Dria used to be widely disliked because it has several natural geographic advantages on one side, which statistically wins the most by a wide margin. But, now the Randomizer Dria seems to be the preferred version because there's usually plenty of strong flyers to help balance out the asymmetry of the map, so it doesn't feel so lop-sided anymore. That works toward creating balance. But, unpairing the nodes will make for an unbalanced map. I don't think that ever ends up being well-liked by the community, but I could be wrong. I personally don't like the idea of pushing anything toward imbalance on purpose, seems antithetical to having a balancer to start with.

Also, absolutely zero stock vehicles should ever appear on any Randomizer, they're useless against the more powerful vehicles. Just seems like the ratio of powerful tanks to powerful flyers is heavily favored toward tanks.

And since we have so many tank only randomizers, except a couple hammerheads or OmniHelix, plus the fact that regular Randomizers can also end up mostly tanks, can we maybe create a couple flyer-centric randomizers? We have the new Valarna and VolcanoHigh maps, but they also have lots of super powerful ground vehicles. I was thinking something like a Slated Randomizer with mostly flyers and a few anti-air vehicles. I know flyers aren't as popular with most of our players, but Slated is a very popular map for those that like the flyers a lot.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

Understood, but nodes still get point values. So say:
Tank = 200 pts
Raptor =200 pts
Manta = 100
Scorp = 50

With the paired nodes they get same points, you can specify a min/max (eg. 200 - 600), say the random point total is 400, and you get 3 vehicles:
Tank, Manta, Manta with node pair you get the same VEHICLES. Here the points are the same, but vehicles could be different, eg. Raptor, Manta, Manta. That should help with the nodes being offset, you shoudl get same relative strength, as the min/max is pretty close, eg. 400-500, so you should get vehicles of equal points (power); points are assigned by the mapper. So maybe you get a Hurricane, and the other node gets a Bio Tank. You shouldn't end up with one gets Hurricane and the other gets Scorpion. So it shouldn't be that lopsided...I can make all those nodes exactly = points but does take some of the randomness out of it. I figured it might cause some mismatches, but wanted something "less predictable" than knowing exactly what your enemy was getting at node 4. This map is already unbalanced and yes that may happen... however in the various node layouts, the nodes aren't paired link wise, meaning one one layout 4 might connect to 5, another they do not. So it should make it interesting and yes perhaps lopsided in some cases. Its the nature of randomizer, if we want perfect balance, then use just fixed vehicles....but even then...

If coldcut(or other stain) might take your mino(or other power vehicle (link flyer, omega, mega, etc.) in which case your team is fucked. Good example was last night on minus, when I was in the mino (and could have been any skilled mino driver), we did well fighting, when the "6pt guy" had it, we lost that round. Didn't matter the balance points, vehicle etc. Just like teamwork...when half your team want to sit back and snipe and not build anything you lose.

I do keep a few stock vehicles, Raptor, Manta as low point filler vehicles... so say that node needs vehicles and is down to 50 pts, we want that extra vehicle even if its kinda crappy. I've been weeding out the crappy vehicles as I redit (got rid of the toon vehicles on a few).

And as far as vehicle mix, I don't ever use stock scorps, Benders, or Goliaths those are mostly useless. The GII is there, as low point option though but its aim is completely accurate. Only stock vehicles are Raptor, Manta, Cicada, as cheap flyers/fast movers. There's a few non-stock scorp varaints, that are somewhat useful Hyena, Stinger/Tarantula, Link scorp, AARV (Assault Scorp with fast homing missles), that again are "cheap vehicles" so we aren't all in super powered vehicles. And some vehicles get a bad rep, say the King HellHound which has a devastating skymine combo, and powerful lasers -- in some ways its as good as a tank. Or the Nova which is really a moving backpack nuke.

I do want to recode the Randomizer so that I can pick a node and say "Flying Only", "Ground Only" (Vehicles already have a bFlying property so it should be relatively easy. Today if I want to restrict vehicles at a node, I there's a "banned" list, which means I have to list every vehicle I DONT want. Hmm. Maybe add an "only" list, so that it only picks from that list (sort of the NOT of the banned list).

As far as ratio, we simply have more ground vehicles to choose from..

Slated Randomizer would be good, could just force/fix a few Ground vehicles like benders, and the rest all random flyers.

I think what makes the flyer maps unpopular is vehicles like Starbolt, Omega and few others, where the power players easily dominate and the rest of the players have no chance in either air-to-air, or ground to air without strong ground vehicle support. So they get frustrated and avoid that map. It'd be like having a Tiamat, no bio, no mino, just stock goliaths... and might even, IMO, be worse than that, since the flyers can just run away whereas a Tiamat is big slow target. A bunch of weaker players in goliaths can team up and kill a tiamat, they can't do that to Leon/Xexx/Enyo in a Falcon, Bolt, Ifrit etc. Even regular avrils are useless...to slow and not manuverable enough, why we have the battery, but even then a really skilled pilot evades easily. Think even Sanka/Anon/Nautikal in rail tank... much easier to kill than Leon/Enyo in starbolt, even with their great aim.

(BTW I've seen several players that just don't seem to EVER be affected by missle locks--even from behind...they just happily plug along while the Avril swerves away...even when the flyer is going straight....????)
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

So on AllFallDown, a couple of things from the first play:
- Dark Levi has to go, to easy to spam the tunnels coming out. Will likely replace it with a fixed tank, maybe classic mino or Heavy tank.
- need a couple more vehicles at the core for comebacks, and maybe a fixed shield tank (Aegis or similar) to help protect coming out of the tunnel
- Wyvern, Windblade, Shocker, IonTank need to be removed from mix (WB is spammy, Wyvern is too fast for this map), Ion ones will just spam the tunnels coming out.

Was very lopsided, as our team was fubar'd... and didn't get to the right nodes.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by Enyo »

Dare I say it... but I think All Fall Down with its low ceiling really needs some manta variants, at least one at the core, and one or two more at other nodes. Flyers are actually weak on this one since they can't go over the mountains, makes them easy targets for the multiple anti-air tanks and benders.

Agree wyvern and windblade are too much, but a short circuit would be a good fixed manta, and one of the mirage mantas. Don't get rid of flyers, just need a couple mantas that can fly under the radar.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

Yes more mantas, and flyers stay -- only things getting rid of is ones I've listed, plus maybe a few ground vehicles that I feel don't really work on this map.
I need to think about how you make a comeback via tunnels with what's at the core. That was part of the intent with Dark Levi, but it just gets set up on the bridge and spams tunnel exits...

The one primary inside the tunnel area for both cores is the "Manta Fueling station", so maybe that ends up being an all flyer/manta node.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

ONS-All-Fall-Down-Randomizer-V2
Changes:
- Removed some ground vehicles, and spammy ones (Shocker, DarkLevi, IonBadger,Ion Tank -- these all spam the tunnels breaking the map)
- Nodes 1/2 "Manta Refueling Station" spawns only mantas/flyers (3 Vehicles)
- Core changes - No Dark Levi, added fixed vehicles Classic Mino and EONS Crusader, added additional vehicle inside core. So 11 vehicles total to start.
- Adjusted node point values. The "bigger" vehicles (Mobreaker/Hurricane/Mega/Classic mino (yes you could get 2) etc. because of their higher points will only spawn at the cores, possibly at 6/7 bridge nodes on a high point loadout. They won't spawn at 4,5,9,10. Those will get lower point vehicles so you won't get a big ass tank on one and bunch of little shit at the other.
- Also vehicles spawn faster at core than nodes, so this should help with comebacks.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

So the other Randomizer Candidates I have in mind:

AbandonedCity - more of tank type map, but could include some flyers/mantas. This is the one with the raised street running across the map. With the flyers the ceiling stays low so flyers have to navigate between the buildings vs. over them. If they could go over kind of breaks the map flow.

ZeroImpact - more of a full randomizer, possibly with Mechs. This is the map with the large rotating conveyer. Good for flyers and fast movers.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by pooty »

Abandoned-City-Randomizer-V1 got loaded tonight. We played it and it played pretty well. Suggestion to remove the Nepthys way to spammy in the enclosed area of the map.
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Re: Randomizer candidates...

Post by Super Sanka »

More than 1 on each side is too spammy. I miss the old Nepthys. It used to be one of the fastest tanks we had.
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