ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

General Comments, Questions about all things OmnipotentS that don't go in other topics/forums
Xexx
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by Xexx »

I think linking to these lag switches is a mistake, it's likely most people don't know about them but if they didn't, they sure do now. I had heard of them before but always thought that they were only good for games that were client side authoritative and/or had client side compensation for network latency.

I haven't noticed anyone really exhibiting behavior as above, but I HAVE noticed a couple players in particular seem to always survive more damage than I think they should, BUT, I have also noticed that damage often from certain vehicles doesn't seem to be applying correctly despite the shot landing and suffering noticeable pushback, but no damage being applied. This, in my experience, has 90% of the time been some combination of the the hammerhead and the mino variants combined with terrain changes and/or line of sight use (Don't care what anyone says, the old school mino suffers this just as much as the better one) The ballista main cannon fire is also pretty bad for not applying damage with direct hits on nodes. I have no clue what classes of damage some of the new vehicles use, but definitely feel the entire situation hasn't been improved with all the different vehicles. There are also people who think the link fire and other hitscan weapons reach across the entirety of the map, but it's pretty obvious that even shock rifle fire only reaches about 35% across Minus and the like (Hence my request for hitsounds, once again.) Often times the fire distance stops just short of hitting the player and doesn't reach them.

There are also a high number of players who have zero clue about angles of attack, avoiding splash damage with line of sight positioning, and when to actually engage an enemy in a superior vehicle when you have a weaker one, or are in a weaker position on the map for engagement.
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Enyo
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by Enyo »

Xexx wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:59 pm I think linking to these lag switches is a mistake, it's likely most people don't know about them but if they didn't, they sure do now. I had heard of them before but always thought that they were only good for games that were client side authoritative and/or had client side compensation for network latency.
I don't think anyone linked to an actual lag switch, they're just articles explaining what they are. Besides, showing someone where a gun is doesn't mean they're suddenly going to turn into a murderer and start plugging people. Likewise, players not already prone to cheating aren't going to suddenly start cheating because you told them what a lag switch is. Sharing knowledge of something that could potentially be affecting our whole community of gamers is never a bad thing in my view.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
― Mark Twain
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McLovin
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by McLovin »

I'm running on ancient equipment. A windows PC from 2007 running Windows Vista. I've been a lazy SOB to rehost my UT2004 to my newer machines. But if my equipment was causing lag I would absolutely swap it out in a heart-beat to continue to play here.

When I started running this ancient PC that I run UT on now, I was amazed at the level of detail I could see over the previous box. It was the first time I could see the head light glares from my own vehicles, LOL
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pooty
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by pooty »

This, in my experience, has 90% of the time been some combination of the the hammerhead and the mino variants combined with terrain changes and/or line of sight use (Don't care what anyone says, the old school mino suffers this just as much as the better one) The ballista main cannon fire is also pretty bad for not applying damage with direct hits on nodes. I have no clue what classes of damage some of the new vehicles use, but definitely feel the entire situation hasn't been improved with all the different vehicles. There are also people who think the link fire and other hitscan weapons reach across the entirety of the map, but it's pretty obvious that even shock rifle fire only reaches about 35% across Minus and the like (Hence my request for hitsounds, once again.) Often times the fire distance stops just short of hitting the player and doesn't reach them.
Yes the engine isn't perfect.
- Mino projectile is the same for both versions other than damage radius..its THE fastest projectile on the server. (Shock/Minigun are hit scan, not projectiles). They are a bit too fast, IMO, for the server to handle.
- The Ballista has a "delayed" effect, much like Ion, Singularity of the MAS, so there's a time delay between "hit" and damage dealt.

For new things we try to keep the projectiles slower for better performance...as usual playing with them offline is often much different than on a full server..

WRT to the range, that is true, I've seen many try to shoot when you're out of range, and there is a slight difference in effect when it hits something vs. runs out due to range, but hard to notice in the heat of the battle.

And its a ~20 year old engine, it has limitations, terrain interplay, mesh blocking, and vehicle hit boxes etc. all are NOT pixel perfect. And other than the few "overloaded" maps, I don't want to introduce any more of those -- the lag on MassD gets to be quite intolerable at times.
There are also a high number of players who have zero clue about angles of attack, avoiding splash damage with line of sight positioning, and when to actually engage an enemy in a superior vehicle when you have a weaker one, or are in a weaker position on the map for engagement.
Sadly true, re: Terminator in the Alligator last night on Nevermore behind a wall..the noobs just kept pulling out right in front of him and then complaining about it.
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Enyo
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by Enyo »

Here below are 7 explanation videos showing what I and the other admins believe are repeated "lag switch" events. If it's not a lag switch, then it's some other issue related to internet connection or hardware/software setup that must be corrected before these two players return. Otherwise, continued observation of these types of events will likely lead to session kicks or potentially further action.

The key point to making this public is the fact we have all (admins and other players) seen these types of events consistently and repeatedly from these two players. Yes, you see occasional lag events with other players, but the important point to remember is these events happen consistently and repeatedly, virtually every match, every round with both Xexx and leon. Server wide lag events cause issues for all players, giving nobody a lag advantage.

We ask for two things after reviewing ALL videos: 1) an explanation from Xexx and leon as to what certainly appears to be repeated lag switch events that ALWAYS work to their advantage; 2) input from the community as to what action, if any, should be taken based on video evidence presented.

Explanation Videos:
Xexx #1: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VtcaVDo6J
leon #1: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VtnnVDorq
Xexx #2: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3Vtn3VDo0y
leon #2: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VtnwVDoZa
Xexx #3: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VtngVDoTy
leon #3: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VtnKVDoOP
Xexx #4: https://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/c3VteEVDoye

Full, unedited raw videos – each is 3 min or less, event happens usually in last 15 sec:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7rjhmtzql1111 ... d.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5l7degb6l9mjn ... o.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gsiybgajzur8b ... s.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ei6qms4crweib ... 5.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8hg5xuwq6s1q3 ... p.mp4?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xajquyxlardxc ... t.mp4?dl=0

Unedited 19 Min Xexx Spec Video, multiple events - note the difference in how lag switching affects gameplay from his perspective, always seems to be ahead of everyone, giving an advantage every time, and you never see the "blipping" or disappearing/reappearing in a different spot from this view:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m9wsymeyauabx ... c.mp4?dl=0

Lag switching is incredibly difficult to prove because there's no suspect files to catch, and many events are difficult to spot unless going frame by frame. However, when these events happen repeatedly with the same two players, and have for years, and it's happening exclusively with them, something needs to be done to remedy the issue. Regardless of the reason these events happen over and over, they DO happen, and consistently with these two. Before taking any action, we sincerely want the opinions of the community.

Note, I often view Net stats during gameplay, and with my Gigabit fiber connection I have literally never experienced any packet loss. I also do not adjust my netspeed to increase frame rates as that's known to cause rendering issues.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
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pooty
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by pooty »

I'll add that we do take cheating/hacks seriously.. we want a fun fair game for all.
We employ several strategies to check your install as well as Anti cheat mechanisms, spectating, video.

In fact, I just banned a player who played yesterday for having a known cheat. It was not a well known player but they had a known cheat in the UT install and they got banned.

So please don't cheat, I don't like banning players.
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YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH »

Those vidoes are really well done. I know what to look out for now. Here are my random thoughts:

1) Are avril locks guaranteed as long as you have a clear sight line? I seem to have people sometimes snap out of them if they are quick enough (usually during a fly-by).

2) I've never noticed the skipping or "blips" but it's possible neither of them feel threatened enough by me to use a potential lag switch, hence why Enyo sees them more.

3) It's much more difficult to prove a negative, so I don't know how xexx or leon would be able to defend themselves on these accusations.

4) If they are true I hope they both now see that somebody notices and quit cheating.

5) Is it possible to try to spec a different top player and see if you can draw any of the same patterns.... make another bermuda triangle? If not, then there's at least something going on here.

6) I do remember in an old thread how people noticed leon as a "most improved" player. He does put in a lot of hours but maybe there's a connection there too.

7) I'd hate to see long term players who are also active on the forums get banned.

8) So far pooty and enyo you've seemed to be super pragmatic about this which is good, but I also know you both personally do not like xexx so I have to take that bias into account.

9) xexx and leon, if you are lag switching, just freaking stop. Get owned every once in a while like the rest of us.

I'm curious on others thoughts. This is a rocky issue to have, especially considering all the variables with internet connections and a 2004 game that seems to be pushed to its limits most of the time.

I'm going to go make some popcorn for this thread.
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YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH »

And as a side note there was a server I played on years ago where there was a player named do-si-do who would dominate in the 3rd bender seat. He apparently played professionally at some point when this game was popular. People (myself included) defended him all the time against noobs who would accuse him of cheating... "no he's just really freaking good". Over the years you'd learn how to work around his cheats and still find ways to kill him.. but he still was always on top.

Sure enough someone found out he was in fact aimbotting and he got permabanned. So I definitely am aware that people can get away with lying to your face for years.
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Enyo
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by Enyo »

YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 pm Those vidoes are really well done. I know what to look out for now. Here are my random thoughts:

1) Are avril locks guaranteed as long as you have a clear sight line? I seem to have people sometimes snap out of them if they are quick enough (usually during a fly-by).
Thank you... and no, avrils are not guaranteed to lock with line of sight. Flyers can evade locks, but when legit the missiles don't zig zag and do u-turns for no reason.
YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 pm 3) It's much more difficult to prove a negative, so I don't know how xexx or leon would be able to defend themselves on these accusations.
True, but they need to offer some kind of explanation as to why these events happen with only them and ALWAYS benefit them.
YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 pm 5) Is it possible to try to spec a different top player and see if you can draw any of the same patterns.... make another bermuda triangle? If not, then there's at least something going on here.
Oh yeah, this has been done for more hours than I care to have spent spectating players like Tater, Nautikal, Anonymous, FuriousRabbit and Ebno. I've NEVER seen even one lag event from any of them that comes even close to any shown in the videos. This also goes for when I encounter them, never have a problem killing them. Xexx and leon do not take damage like all other players and constantly get out of missile locks when they shouldn't be able, a lag switch is a very plausible explanation for that.
YEAAAHHHHHHHHHH wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:31 pm 7) I'd hate to see long term players who are also active on the forums get banned.

8) So far pooty and enyo you've seemed to be super pragmatic about this which is good, but I also know you both personally do not like xexx so I have to take that bias into account.

9) xexx and leon, if you are lag switching, just freaking stop. Get owned every once in a while like the rest of us.
I don't want to ban any players either, and if it was personal they'd be gone already. This is an opportunity to get to the bottom of why this happens so consistently with them. If it's internet, hardware or software issues, they need to troubleshoot and fix them. But if that were the case, they wouldn't always get the upper hand from these events. The consistency of it with them and the absence of it with everyone else is what makes it so suspect.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
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Tater
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Re: ALL PLEASE READ: Possible cheat/hacks...

Post by Tater »

Xexx's first video seemed... odd. Issues like that I would have blamed it on server-client latency as it's a very old game... or someone having a poor internet connection. You mentioned that while in regular time it's hard to catch, and you're right. Maybe it happens more often than I realize, but to Xexx's credit I don't think I've recognized it before when fighting him. Most of the events you pointed out seemed suspicious though.

Leon's first video, I've seen the avril do that often. It's happened to me several times, especially in a fast flier. I think it has to do with the avril's code, and the math it does to determine the correct path to take so it hits the flier at the flier's current velocity.
The avril gets really wonky when you fire at a flier in front of you, and it then flies overtop of you... it'll slow down and will never reach the flier. Not every time, but it does mess up sometimes. Has happened often on Alienhop with my avril at enemy mantas. I'll try to remember to record if I see it happen again.

Leon's second vid the wraith is really buggy when you swap from first to second seat on a busy server, even the cicada is buggy. I've witnessed it a lot when having cicada-variant fights with others, I assumed latency was the issue. On your screen they would still be flying up, but their computer communicated to the server that the flier is no longer moving because they're now in 2nd seat, and it updates to your computer slower than it should.

Not sure about Leon's 3rd video either. Was weird. I would've guessed you guys were at the absolute limit the avril can lock on, and your dodging / Leon's flier slightly moving was preventing it from locking fully until you dodged closer within the max lock-on distance. That would've been my guess. I don't know the actual distance, it seemed far though.

Xexx's fourth video was also odd (aside from me not knowing what I was doing in that crappy guppy heli). Don't know how the avril broke lock with that guy on the ground, maybe he wasn't zooming in?
With concern to the missile tank, if they're far enough away I can avoid their shots by dodging in a single direction on foot. Can't explain the hits on the flier though. I would've chalked it up to be a latency issue with his client and the server.
The venom's missiles aren't very agile either, I think he just got real lucky with how he turned his heli. Was surprised it missed him too. I can't explain the avril that did no damage to his heli though.
No idea what happened with the avril on the guppy. I know their hitbox is weird, or at least it feels awkward to hit. Can't explain how it missed him though, was actually funny to watch.

From my experience, I don't think Leon is cheating. Xexx is a more suspicious because of the video evidence, but in my experience I can't recall / don't have any recordings of a "Well how the **** did he do that?!" moment.
Most of Leon's videos are explainable, I don't think he's lag-switching at all. We have to remember that it's a very old game, and that there are definite latency-issues as well.

If they are lag-switching, then your videos will act as a reminder/ scare them to discontinue using it.
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