Balancer...

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pooty
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Balancer...

Post by pooty »

So last night was some pretty whacked teams. Here's one of the logs:
DesertJunkYard
EvenMatchDebug: ^oblio^ 102.91 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: FuriousRabbit 460.39 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: BIG_FloPPies 289.43 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Coldcut 184.78 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Eny)o( 485.32 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: phred 280.65 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: leon 575.40 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: EbNo 416.28 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Man_Bear_Pig 215.59 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: DW>RESURRECTION 187.05 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: p)o(Oty 255.38 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: 11:11 247.79 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Azazel 255.61 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Ecmerd 229.19 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: M2o4r5 712.44 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Lehi 180.29 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Vugluskr 340.63 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Rick_Grimes[TWD] 182.92 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: 18 players, combined PPH 5602.06, balance target PPH per team 2801.03
EvenMatchDebug: Balancing team sizes and PPH...
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning M2o4r5 (712.44 PPH) and leon (575.40 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: M2o4r5 will be on red (now 712.44 PPH), leon will be on blue (now 575.40 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Eny)o( (485.32 PPH) and FuriousRabbit (460.39 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Eny)o( will be on blue (now 1060.72 PPH), FuriousRabbit will be on red (now 1172.83 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning EbNo (416.28 PPH) and Vugluskr (340.63 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: EbNo will be on blue (now 1477.00 PPH), Vugluskr will be on red (now 1513.47 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning BIG_FloPPies (289.43 PPH) and phred (280.65 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: BIG_FloPPies will be on blue (now 1766.43 PPH), phred will be on red (now 1794.11 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Azazel (255.61 PPH) and p)o(Oty (255.38 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Azazel will be on blue (now 2022.04 PPH), p)o(Oty will be on red (now 2049.50 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning 11:11 (247.79 PPH) and Ecmerd (229.19 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: 11:11 will be on blue (now 2269.83 PPH), Ecmerd will be on red (now 2278.68 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Man_Bear_Pig (215.59 PPH) and DW>RESURRECTION (187.05 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Man_Bear_Pig will be on blue (now 2485.43 PPH), DW>RESURRECTION will be on red (now 2465.73 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Coldcut (184.78 PPH) and Rick_Grimes[TWD] (182.92 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Coldcut will be on red (now 2650.51 PPH), Rick_Grimes[TWD] will be on blue (now 2668.34 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Lehi (180.29 PPH) and ^oblio^ (102.91 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Lehi will be on red (now 2830.80 PPH), ^oblio^ will be on blue (now 2771.26 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Red team size 9, combined PPH 2830.80
EvenMatchDebug: Blue team size 9, combined PPH 2771.26

Emphasis added in Bold.
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pooty
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

UnknownWay, was a little better

EvenMatchDebug: Coldcut 121.42 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: ^oblio^ 69.04 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Joe&Kameltoe 200.73 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: BIG_FloPPies 243.34 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: amxl 110.93 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Eny)o( 376.32 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: Gl@ssEye 233.04 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: leon 485.90 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: EbNo 370.18 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: FuriousRabbit 333.30 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: 11:11 208.67 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: M2o4r5 429.55 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Vugluskr 279.75 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: p)o(Oty 254.68 PPH, currently on Blue
EvenMatchDebug: Azazel 191.60 PPH, currently on Red
EvenMatchDebug: 15 players, combined PPH 3908.45, balance target PPH per team 1954.22
EvenMatchDebug: Balancing team sizes and PPH...
EvenMatchDebug: Odd player count, randomly assigning ^oblio^ to blue (69.04 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning leon (485.90 PPH) and M2o4r5 (429.55 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: leon will be on red (now 485.90 PPH), M2o4r5 will be on blue (now 498.58 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Eny)o( (376.32 PPH) and EbNo (370.18 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Eny)o( will be on red (now 862.23 PPH), EbNo will be on blue (now 868.76 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning FuriousRabbit (333.30 PPH) and Vugluskr (279.75 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: FuriousRabbit will be on red (now 1195.53 PPH), Vugluskr will be on blue (now 1148.51 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning p)o(Oty (254.68 PPH) and BIG_FloPPies (243.34 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: p)o(Oty will be on blue (now 1403.19 PPH), BIG_FloPPies will be on red (now 1438.87 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Gl@ssEye (233.04 PPH) and 11:11 (208.67 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Gl@ssEye will be on blue (now 1636.23 PPH), 11:11 will be on red (now 1647.54 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Joe&Kameltoe (200.73 PPH) and Azazel (191.60 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Joe&Kameltoe will be on blue (now 1836.95 PPH), Azazel will be on red (now 1839.14 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Assigning Coldcut (121.42 PPH) and amxl (110.93 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Coldcut will be on blue (now 1958.37 PPH), amxl will be on red (now 1950.07 PPH)
EvenMatchDebug: Red team size 7, combined PPH 1950.07
EvenMatchDebug: Blue team size 8, combined PPH 1958.37
EvenMatchDebug: Applying team changes...
EvenMatchDebug: Moving leon to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving FuriousRabbit to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving amxl to red
EvenMatchDebug: Moving ^oblio^ to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Moving EbNo to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Moving Vugluskr to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Moving Coldcut to blue
EvenMatchDebug: Teams shuffled.
ScriptLog: START MATCH
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pooty
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

So a couple things jump out to me. Balancer algorithim is pretty sound. Data maybe not so much.
I think one thing that would help would be to implement a "cap" on pph. That one player, who I don't know who that was, threw it way off. For the most part, most of the point balances look decent. but a cap of say 500 or 450, would ensure that top PPH players can't skew the balance above. If say 450 was max, you might have 4 players all with 450 at the top, and it should put 2 on one team and then two on the other...

The other thing that got me was on some maps the spammer/campers rack up a ton of points (ie. RickGrimes on TAL, just spammed with the ion, getting points but repeatedly getting it killed... got the high score, but IMO didn't help the team much at all -- he'd been better off spamming down low, shadow style, at least it would have helped vs rushing 5 and dying qucikly).

I'd have to rewrite the even match stuff, but that's not a huge deal.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by captainsnarf »

Would using percentiles be better?
To calculate any sort of exact percentile, you take all your values, sort them, then find the nth value based on the percentile you’re trying to calculate.
Sort everybody by PPH (or any other metric really), then go down the list from beginning to end red/blue/red/blue until list is empty. Even a huge 1000000 PPH would not affect the rest of the list, they would just be at the top. With averaging, the 100000 PPH will end up with a bunch of scrubs on his team.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by pooty »

Yes perhaps. I need to think about how to do it. I think we might be on to something, we'd use percentiles, but normalize it, basically figure out a grading scale, a bit more granular than A-F, maybe percentile / 10. So the 90-100 are top tier players..that all count evenly... might help...

I really want to decode how it stores the values....so I can match id to actual players.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by Enyo »

pooty wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:03 pm Yes perhaps. I need to think about how to do it. I think we might be on to something, we'd use percentiles, but normalize it, basically figure out a grading scale, a bit more granular than A-F, maybe percentile / 10. So the 90-100 are top tier players..that all count evenly... might help...

I really want to decode how it stores the values....so I can match id to actual players.
None of this matters if the balancer continues using PPH because the game is still scoring things inconsistently. Like you said, not so sure the data is even any good. I have yet another example where I have more frags/kills AND more nodes built/destroyed than another player (in this case SK10) yet he still outscored me??? This issue needs to be solved before monkeying with the balancer and how it actually works.

I'm inclined to say points for kills should be turned off entirely and only reward points for building and destroying nodes. If we keep saying that nodes are what really matters, then the scoring should reflect just that.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by SK10H »

Enyo wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:12 pm
pooty wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:03 pm Yes perhaps. I need to think about how to do it. I think we might be on to something, we'd use percentiles, but normalize it, basically figure out a grading scale, a bit more granular than A-F, maybe percentile / 10. So the 90-100 are top tier players..that all count evenly... might help...

I really want to decode how it stores the values....so I can match id to actual players.
I'm inclined to say points for kills should be turned off entirely and only reward points for building and destroying nodes. If we keep saying that nodes are what really matters, then the scoring should reflect just that.
There are many style of play depend on one's preference on different maps. You cannot reward the people that only go to nodes. There has been recent adjustment for boosting point for building/destroying nodes already. I don't see the big deal about this and don't see the problem with the scoring system. I don't usually play for points, otherwise, there will not be anyone taking a turtle in desert because you will never score anything with its speed, you just kill off any incentive to take any slow moving vehicle with your proposed system and everyone will always be fighting for a flyer.

If someone want to act like a camper, it's ok to me as long as they are not taking essential vehicle depending on certain situation (like not impacting the team overall). Certain strategic camping with Levi by Termi is a bitch to kill off without appropriate vehicle and is more deadly than some less effective fighter that keep going to node but get kill off right away.

Ecmerd with its anti air on desert, or the very accurate goliath camping on nevermore is annoying but effective. He will not score any point but will piss off the enemy alot to take him out first. Your proposed system will score him 0 in this case with his strategic camping.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by Enyo »

SK10H wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:44 pm There are many style of play depend on one's preference on different maps. You cannot reward the people that only go to nodes. There has been recent adjustment for boosting point for building/destroying nodes already. I don't see the big deal about this and don't see the problem with the scoring system...

Ecmerd with its anti air on desert, or the very accurate goliath camping on nevermore is annoying but effective. He will not score any point but will piss off the enemy alot to take him out first. Your proposed system will score him 0 in this case with his strategic camping.
Sorry, but you're flat wrong here. There is absolutely an issue with the scoring system, it's scoring frags inconsistently, especially with vehicles. Pooty knows this is true as well, there's something wrong with the mod that's adjusting scoring. Sometimes you'll get damage points for high HP vehicles, and sometimes you get only one point.

This has nothing to do with "worrying about your score" and everything to do with how the balancer works based off PPH, which is based on scoring. If the scoring is inconsistent, then PPH is too. If PPH data is bad, then so is what the balancer is doing. It explains why the balancer barely does a better job than random teams.

Onslaught is a game based around nodes. While people like Termi and Nautikal are good at defending and keeping players off nodes, any team that has an overwhelming force of players that are super aggressive node attackers and builders wins EVERY TIME. It's called onslaught for a reason.

BTW, Ecmerd shooting at 5/6 on Nevermore repeatedly would net him quite a lot of points, as it should, since he's constantly destroying those nodes.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by SK10H »

Enyo wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:38 pm
SK10H wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:44 pm There are many style of play depend on one's preference on different maps. You cannot reward the people that only go to nodes. There has been recent adjustment for boosting point for building/destroying nodes already. I don't see the big deal about this and don't see the problem with the scoring system...

Ecmerd with its anti air on desert, or the very accurate goliath camping on nevermore is annoying but effective. He will not score any point but will piss off the enemy alot to take him out first. Your proposed system will score him 0 in this case with his strategic camping.
Sorry, but you're flat wrong here. There is absolutely an issue with the scoring system, it's scoring frags inconsistently, especially with vehicles. Pooty knows this is true as well, there's something wrong with the mod that's adjusting scoring. Sometimes you'll get damage points for high HP vehicles, and sometimes you get only one point.

This has nothing to do with "worrying about your score" and everything to do with how the balancer works based off PPH, which is based on scoring. If the scoring is inconsistent, then PPH is too. If PPH data is bad, then so is what the balancer is doing. It explains why the balancer barely does a better job than random teams.

Onslaught is a game based around nodes. While people like Termi and Nautikal are good at defending and keeping players off nodes, any team that has an overwhelming force of players that are super aggressive node attackers and builders wins EVERY TIME. It's called onslaught for a reason.

BTW, Ecmerd shooting at 5/6 on Nevermore repeatedly would net him quite a lot of points, as it should, since he's constantly destroying those nodes.
I do not need you to teach me how onslaught is a game based on nodes building. Whatever frag scoring inconsistency is a problem but still not a major deal breaker. System base on PPH alone is not going to be consistently useful. A mino whore will get higher pph most of the time, doesn't mean shit without it. And no, I do not agree with adjusting the frag scoring system, removing the camper incentive, making slow moving vehicle pointless, encouraging the noob to take all the fast flying vehicle mindlessly so you can bitch more in games about how you're getting the slower shitty ones, just to improve the broken PPH system.

Your suggestion of getting rid of score base on frag is idiotic. It's good you aren't the one designing the scoring system in the UT dev team. If everyone worry about scoring like you do, there will be no one willing to go and kill a mino because that net the player 0 point base on frag or killing a high powered vehicle which is difficult. Assuming everyone play in a selfish way, there's no incentive to do so, might as well let the sucker go do it and just camp at a node waiting to destroy or build it so you can get some more points.

It will create the situation of players mindlessly going to node with fast vehicle with no strategic use on the slow ass one because that's the most selfish way to gain points.

And I have not seen ecmerd taking a mino in nevermore and only act as a goliath camper because that's what he likes to do, nothing wrong with not going to node, because he's strategically playing his way. If he plays selfishly, he can take the mino or other higher powered vehicle and get more points, not necessarily him in this case but other player as well.

Your way is not the only way to play onslaught. Stop dictating how other players have to play it your way to score point or be worth to exist in the onslaught world.
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Re: Balancer...

Post by Enyo »

SK10, you're completely missing the point, and it's funny you think I play for points, sadly you seem to think everyone does. I play to win, period. And that means working as a team capturing nodes and destroying cores. And it's not MY way of playing, it's the whole fucking point of onslaught. The selfish sobs that run around the map vehicle death matching and not advancing on nodes are hurting their team. How can you argue that? It's interesting that you think points are the only motivating factor for anyone to do anything . My motivation for doing anything in this game, including killing the mino, is NEVER how many points I get for it. I don't think it is for most good players either.

I'm not truly in favor of getting rid of frag points either, the original statement is a bit of hyperbole. I was trying to call attention to the fact the scoring mutator is jacked up and skewing the ability of the balancer to work properly. It's affecting the balancer far more than you realize, surely pooty will back me up on this. The balancer does such a poor job because the data it gets is not good. PPH is a perfectly fine metric to use IF it reflects points from the most important aspect of onslaught, which is nodes.

Do you even realize that the damage points mutator is set right now to reward only 1 point per kill, regardless of vehicle type? But the problem is it does not work consistently at all. That was done to give node building a higher value so the balancer has at least some shot at working better. But some players are being rewarded vehicle damage points when they shouldn't be, and others are only getting 1 point. The damage points mutator is causing severe skewing of players' PPH right now. That's a problem that needs to be addressed.
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